The next air war will not be over Iraq. It will be over the Knee Defender which advertises itself as a way to “protect against reclining seatbacks on airplanes – save more legroom – can help you guard against economy class syndrome – thrombosis – DV”. It's a little piece of plastic that air passengers can slip on the seat in front of them, and freeze it in place — turning every seat potentially into one of those awful immobile ones sometimes found just in front of the exit row.
Already, one airline has banned it in response to traveler complaints. What drives people to carry a plastic block onto a plane to reduce the comfort of the folks in front of them? I'd wager that in most cases it is not a concern with proper posture, nor the supposed health advantages. Rather, it's to make room for that laptop—on which it so often seems the business traveler plays solitaire and watches movies…
Actually, this would make a decent law school exam question: does the deployment of Knee Defender in order to prevent the other passenger's seat's from reclining amount to the commission of any sort of tort? [I'll bet there are no contract claims against the airlines—they have their boilerplate down to an art form.]
[PS: this lawtechguru site is worth a visit.]
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Interesting…
Im just waiting for someone to put one of those things on the back of the seat I paid for with my hard earned money. They will be so sorry they did.
Step 1- notify flight attendant of the selfishness of the SOB behind me
Step 2- we’ll see if that person is not compliant
Step 3- I hope I see that person again outside of the airport. I will teach him/her a lesson so that they learn that the world does not revolve around them.
Please don’t let it be you. You’ve been warned
Have you ever sat in the rear seat (which doesn’t recline) and had the passenger in front recline fully? His head was squarely in the face of this 5’3″ woman. The degree to which a seat can recline was apparently established when airlines spaced their rows substantially farther apart. Many people simply don’t consider that a fully reclined seat means that the passenger behind them has no choice but to match their position.
nobody forces you to travel in economic class.
Just fly first class and you won’t have this kind of problem
Yes, bying a first class ticket is your option to, why don’t YOU exercise that right? Because that seat costs more than average people (like yourself) can afford. I’m sure it’s no problem whatsoever for you to fork over 1000 dollars or more so that you’re not intruding on someone elses life, for the 3 hours you can just be rude. Yes it’s your right, but so is throwing up on the guy reclining in your lap. It’s alowed, but rude. Ask before you recline and stop the “It’s my right” crap. Be polite. Act like civilized human beings and everyone can be alright with the cramped space.
just wondering how many people who plan to use this thing are also planning in all fairness, NOT to recline their own seats while in flight? Probably zero. i have a suggestion for these idiots who scream of bashed knee syndrome: don’t mess with my seat; buy yourself some knee pads and wear ‘em!
Airlines and passengers who want to recline do not want you to use the Knee Defender. Is the problem the use of an external device to prevent seat recline, or the actual prevention of seat recline? I can imagine recliners and airlines getting upset when they see this device in use. What happens when I just use my knees to prevent the seat in front from reclining? Am I required to adjust my body position to accomodate someone else?
As a courtesy, ask the person behind you if it’s OK to recline.
I’m 6’4″ and have spent long flights seated behind vertically challanged people who feel like reclining the entire flight. It’s no fun.
I’d be willing to pay a small premium to get more legroom, but it’s not yet an option. Paying 3x as much for a 1st class seat is also not an option.
As so many assholes think they have the right to incline their seats withour regard to the person behind, I say it is a great development.
Don
So now we should feel sorry for people because their tall? This is similar to the problem with overweight people who think that you should put up the arm rest so that can have more space. If I pay for a seat on an airplane, I will recline it as I see fit. I guess that I am fortunate to be 5’8″ but I still weigh 190. If someone were to put this device in to prevent me from reclining the first thing I would break would be the Knee Defender. After that…
Wow, and when strange people show up in your town do you beat them up too? After all, you pay taxes in that town so you own it right? Everyone on that plane has a paid seat. Your right to recline is no greater than their right to be as comfortable as they can be. What a confrontational jerk! Just break the seat, it’s your right. After all, you and only you bought a seat on that flight. No one has rights but you. Selfish SOB! I hope the guy behing you kicks your ass when the plane lands. After all, life is all about YOU.
You REALLY need to take a deep breath and get a life….there’s more to living than obsessing over a few hours of your life spent flying about. If you don’t like the idea of sitting behind someone who exercises their passenger right to recline, then I suggest you find another mode of transportation. As a flight attendant, I can assure you that I will defend any passengers’s desire to recline.
How solemnly wise you sound from afar, so I suggest that you should either adjust your adamant attitude or be prepared to be Casey at the bat as you sir will most definitely and deservedly get some chin music.
Doesn’t this send a message to airlines though? I mean for an industry that’s struggling to drive revenue so bad, you would think they would listen to customer feedback and increase the amount of room on their planes. Go ahead and charge more per ticket, the people that want to get crammed in like cattle can go with another airline that doesn’t offer the same seating room. I am 6′ 6″ and 300 lbs. I wouldn’t call myself obese, but I am simply a very big person. Air travel is horrific for someone of my size. Should airlines make changes just for me? No. But a few more options besides getting financially raped for first class would be nice.
I work for American, and we’re about to create a policy against it, Continental’s working on the same thing. Knee Defender, can you say “buh-bye”???
Gee, thanks American Employee! As a platinum member of AAdvantage, I’m one of your better customers. And since getting upgrades to a decent seat is very hard on the routes I fly, I fly 90% of my time in coach.
And since your seats are so freaking cramped, I am starting to tell my boss I don’t need to fly, I’ll just call in to a telecon. He likes it, because he saves money. I like it, because I don’t have to get on one of your cattle cars.
So be flippant about the problem, I’ll just fly less. And Platinum Status or not, I’ll give my business to any airline that gives me a decent seat for a decent price.
“buy-bye” to you, wiseass
Ah….given the fact that you demonstrate your “business acumen” and professional approach through such techniques as referencing a lowly airline employee, who dared to take a position contrary to yours, as an “asshole,” I can assure you of two things. First, I wonder how long you would stay employed and need to travel once your “boss” found out how you represent your company in the treatment of others, as evidenced by your above referenced comments. Secondly, trust me when I tell you that I dare say American Airlines employees would prefer that should you indeed decide to fly less, please take your disdainful, condescending, sense-of-entitlement attitude and business else where. Have a good day.
as a very tall woman who just got back from a us to europe flight, i can understand this product. the person in front of me had the seat reclined most of the way, crushing my knees. when i got up a few hours later, i noticed that it was a 4 year old kid. who was in the bulkhead. and obviously just reclined because he could.
and no, i wouldn’t put my seat back if i got the defender. i rarely do, because i think it’s just rude, unless there is an empty seat behind me.
and i can’t even come close to affording first class. give me a break. just because i chose to work for a charity, does that mean that i should have to deal with this kind of inconsiderate behavior? if people would just use a little empathy here, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. but everyone has to be a jerk…
In response to Casey: A person who is overweight CAN diet to lose weight. A person who is tall, CAANOT do anything to make themselves shorter. There is a difference.
It is stated that a person’s comfort is reduced by not reclining the seat. What about the tall person’s comfort? It is EXTREMELY uncomfortable for a person over 6′ to fly for any length of time in an airplane, much less with the person in front smashing into your knees for the entire flight.
I am fascinated by the comments of people who believe they have an unrestricted right to recline.
Suppose I am a person who has a physical problem that requires me to get up (circulatory, arthritic or other illness) frequently during flight. I may not even actually sit behind the recliner but further in the row behind them.
Are the recliners going to say that their right to MAXIMIZE their comfort should supercede the unavoidable physical needs of other passengers? Are they going to say that they will always be reasonable being awakened constantly by someone who has to get up and down frequently?
How about the taller person who would like to consume a meal in flight? Isn’t that their right as well? Its virtually impossible to manage a meal with a fully reclined seat back into the lap of someone six feet tall.
If you are going to say “tough that your tall” what about the people sitting around someone that big, trying to eat and having to stick their elbows into the face of their row-mates to do so? Do the two other people affected have no reasonable “rights” to comfort as well?
The person who reclines takes up more space in an area limited to everyone. Why isn’t that considered intrusive? Selfish? They create an obstacle, not just for the person directly behind them but for others that, in many cases, can be extremely discomforting. Why does that one person’s desire (not need) for more space override all other person’s considerations?
The solution is for the airlines to spell out the “rights” to recline. I don’t mind people who are thoughtful and ask permission reclining somewhat but, being six two, I cannot shorten my legs. I cannot afford to fly first class because my business won’t pay for it and, when I travel with my family, I cannot afford it nor am I comfortable abandoning my children on a flight.
The space in front of a seat should be considered mine to control. I shouldn’t have to explain to a passenger or steward that my knees are going to be crushed or that I will need to frequently go to the toilet due to an embarrassing internal problem.
The “right to recline” crowd are selfish and inconsiderate of the BASIC needs of others in their pursuit to INCREASE their comfort. They are creating an intrusion and, under most other social situations, people intruding into other peoples space are expected to be accomadating (not the other way around). Please, someone explain to me where society has changed so much that this kind of behavior is not only acceptable but THE priority that supersedes all other considerations.
Well said!
I’m 6’9″ tall and I hear “If I was your height…” comments all the time. Well, the answer is, “If you were my height, you would hate being forced to cram into tiny places.” When eating an airline meal, l can’t even use the tray in the back of the seat because my knees prevent it from leveling out…and that’s when the seat in front of me is in the “upright” position! Still, the people to request the extra legroom of the emergency exit rows are usually under 6 feet tall.
Average height people really have no idea what being tall is like: the only passable doorways are custom-made (standard building doors are only 6’8″ tall); the only comfortable seats in an airplane are in first class; and the only comfortable driver’s seat in a car is in a Mercedes Benz S Class (legroom in inches don’t matter when steering wheel columns don’t lift high enough and telescope toward the driver. Exception: full-sized GM trucks). None of these is an option if you are not fortunate enough to have one of the 400 high-paying jobs in the NBA.
The solution to this whole problem, as said by many others, is simple courtesy. If you wish to recline your seat, check first with the person behind you to see if there is a problem. At least give them time to close their laptop or move their drink so it will not be crushed. Be considerate of others and compromise your own needs somewhat and it will all work out. The way it works now, the airlines encourage us to see it as our right to suddenly recline our seats fully, and damned be the person behind us who is injured or discomforted. Where else in life is this kind of rude behavior acceptable? It occurs on every flight I take, too.
Another solution, for the airlines to give us more leg room, is something that we all should be demanding. They continue to shrink our spaces beyond what is reasonable. Let’s fly on the airlines that give us some room. In the meantime, the Knee Defender is the only solution for a traveler who needs to safeguard their computer or safety. Hopefully, using the Knee Defender will serve as the beginning of a conversation and a dialogue between the passengers that will lead to a compromise, though.
This all reminds me of 15 years ago, when some smokers felt that they had a Divine right to light up anywhere at any time without first checking to see if another person in the room objected. I hope that we resolve this issue with more finesse that that issue was resolved. I would hate to see all reclining barred by the airlines locking all seats in an upright position.
In a better world, airplanes would have more legroom, even for the 6’9″ passenger AND enough space to recline a seat enough to avoid lower back and hip discomfort. Unfortunately, the *reality* is that airlines are in deep trouble. The vast majority of passengers book according to price, with some airlines able to eke out a $10-$15 price differential, such as American Airlines, due to its More Room Throughout Coach product. But in order to offer more legroom, the airlines can only have fewer rows of seats. Fewer seats means less revenue. Less revenue means cutting costs even further and slashing salaries to near Fast-Food wages – and resulting poorer service and crabby flight attendants. That means deeper discounts to fill every last seat or free ticket offers, which mean still less revenue, but more costs to carry more passengers, which means filling more seats. If the planes are already full, it means putting back in more rows to sell more (discounted) seats. That is exactly what American Airlines is doing with its 757 and Airbus 300 planes that are seen as traveling to “leisure” destinations that have more price competition.
While flying is sometimes cheap and sometimes expensive, it is still cheaper than alternatives like Grayhound or Amtrak, and 5 times faster. We have to recognize it for what it is, public transportation, only a step above subways and city buses.
And as for the First Class ultimate solution, even business class and first class seats are squeezed. While they seem psychologically roomier, if you’ve ever been in the window seat and tried to slip out of the row with the seats ahead of you reclined and the aisle passenger’s tray table open, it’s still a series of acrobatics.
The best compromise is to recline your seat partially for your comfort and slowly for others’ comfort. But in a society where people litter and spit on the street, is it really that realistic to expect these courtesies?
Fly safely, and bring water, small snacks and a light sweater; cabin conditions subject to change…
If I had someone behind me with a knee defender stopping me from reclining and I knew it, I would push back as hard as I could until the seat broke and I ended up on his or her lap. Opps, sorry, my seat must be broken.
Put your head in my lap and your neck may get caught in my seat belt extender. Oops.
Put your head in my lap and your neck may become caught in my seat belt extender. Oops.
I have arthritis in my spine, and I have flown in bulkhead seats that would not recline. It was sheer torture. I have the same medical justification to recline my seat as you claim for forcing me not to recline.
The seats are designed to recline. Get over it. Most airplane seats that I have been in do not recline more than an inch or two. Sit in an exit row if you want the extra legroom.
I feel sorry for the minority who are extra tall or overweight, and I personally would minimize my recline if politely asked to do so; however, aIrline seats are designed to recline. Unilaterlly disabling that functionality is rude. I hope airline prohibit the knee defender ASAP.
Why must people go right for the anisocial solution? Here’s an idea or two.
1. Why don’t thos looking for recline protection request seats behind those that don’t recline. I do it all the time with no problem.
2. How about politely asking the person in front of you to not recline so much? Gee … actually try to accomplish something politely with some social grace. Waht a concept.
does the deployment of Knee Defender in order to prevent the other passengers seats from reclining amount to the commission of any sort of tort?
hmmm. if this is deployed in coach, i’m gonna hafta go with “intentional infliction of emotional distress.”
The tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress has four elements: (1) the defendant must act intentionally or recklessly; (2) the defendant’s conduct must be extreme and outrageous; and (3) the conduct must be the cause (4) of severe emotional distress. Hyatt, 943 S.W.2d at 297.
Here, immobilizing the passanger in front is clearly done intentionally; it requires a bit of work and correct placement of little thingies. To prevent poor Mr. Passanger from having just enough room to move his legs in order to ward of thrombosis is outrageous, and, once Mr. Passanger figures out that he can’t move his seat back, BAM! The cause of severe emotional distress. Don’t think so? Try it and see.
So, I suppose, this only kicks in if you try to put the seat back, can’t, and has the stewardess point to the passanger behind you as the culprit.
of course, “false imprisonment” is a more likely charge, but you wanted tort.
Actually, the person behind who’s ability to move their legs and safely exit their seat is eliminated due to the passenger in front reclining is probably in a much better position.
At 6’8″ and 320 lbs(not fat) I have alot of problems in anywhere but first class. I have been able to talk some Airlines into upgrading or getting an exit row, or even politely asking another shorter passenger to switch.
Most people are happy to accomodate you if you’re nice about it.
To Marvin, I hope you sit in front of me someday. ;-|
To bob…I hope you also sit in front of me someday.
At 6’8″ and 320 lbs(not fat) I have alot of problems in anywhere but first class. I have been able to talk some Airlines into upgrading or getting an exit row, or even politely asking another shorter passenger to switch.
Most people are happy to accomodate you if you’re nice about it.
To Marvin, I hope you sit in front of me someday. ;-|
To bob…I hope you also sit in front of me someday.
I’m gonna use it. So sue me, you will only be wasting your money – I have no assets.
The airlines should create non-reclining rows – where nobody could recline. I would certainly choose these seats. I never recline anyway – and I would really like to use my PC and not be in a claustrophobic environment. Those who want to recline can be put in rows with other recliners – and not fear alienating non-recliners. All could be happy then – at minimal expense to the airlines.
For those who believe simple courtesy wil suffice, which airlines have you been riding on? I’ve seen fights in flight (ignored by the flight crew) over reclining seats. Bottom line, there’s not enough leg room in coach.
And for the plight of the airlines, give us a break. Airline executives have (in the words of an airline pilot) “eaten the candy” (high salaries, retirement moved away from the rest of the employees, and unbelievable golden parachute packages. Hate to say “Reregulation” but someone needs to mind the store.
I wonder how many people would still recline if airline seats were designed so that the bottom slid forward instead of the back tilting to the rear?
Great suggestion.
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eco2, you’re a genius! Instead of stealing my already too-tiny sliver of space, they can just re-configure their own!
I think geejaye’s last would be more practicable for the airlines though, and I’m all for it! This would allow for the folks who have a need (real or perceived) to recline, while still protecting those of us who have a need for somewhere to put our knees while we fly. I don’t want the folks in front of me slamming their seats into my knees for the simple reason that I don’t want to end up in the hospital again with another pulmonary embolism..thank you, United Airlines, for eking out a few more dollars at the possible cost of my life! This isn’t just about comfort for me any more, it’s about my life! Mr. Pullen, do you think I’d have a tort claim against the jerk who slams his seat into my knees and refuses to lessen his incline? Reckless, outrageous, and inflicting emotional distress…bingo!
And I’m only 5′-10″…I don’t know how anyone over 6′-0″ can stand flying these days, especially with the risk of sitting behind some ill-mannered insecure little yahoo who wants to stretch out and pretend that he’s bigger than he really is.
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I wouldn’t have a problem with the passenger in front of me reclining if that passenger EVER BOTHERED TO EVEN ASK ME if i was cool with it. This is the inherent problem with most folks that decide to recline–they feel like it’s their God-given right to do so. I just won’t recline unless the seat behind me is empty. I think my dad put it well–the lever to recline the seat should only be accessible to the person sitting directly behind you.
“What drives people to carry a plastic block onto a plane to reduce the comfort of the folks in front of them?”
the purpose of these devices is not to reduce the comfort of the folks in front, it’s stop the folks in front from choosing to reduce their comfort, by reclining into their already cramped space. some airlines have seats that recline forwards, and the knee defender doesn’t stop this kind of reclining. they prevent knee injury and space intrusions, something that shouldn’t happen anyway.
sure you’re uncomfortable and want to recline, but so is the person behind, and what gives you the right to increase your comfort at someone else’s expense?
invalid arguments include “you can recline too” – this is just passing the problem on to someone else who doesn’t deserve to have their space taken, and “the seats were designed to do that” – yes they were designed to be reclined when sleeping at night and the lights are off. doing it before then is just selfish.
as for the legal question, bashing someone’s knees with your seat is assault, and hence the knee defender should reduce the number of claims by making consideration of the person behind non-optional.
I have knee defenders because I am six feet four inches and can’t tolerate someone half my size that feels they have to be in a reclined position for hours.
If there is someone behind me I dint recline my seat either. It’s common courtesy. Or I will see if he has his seat reclined into the passenger behind him. If he did I might be more prone to lean back into him too. If he is that inconsiderate why shouldn’t he get the same treatment?
Does anyone remember civility? This should not be that hard. A little consideration goes a long way.
I’ve actually put my knees in the seat in front of me and slowly shoved it to its full upright position. I did notice that the foot room issue got better when I started stowing my bag in the overhead bin. Of course, that is easier on Southwest since everyone else’s bag is in the cargo hold. A trick that is worth the knee space of a seat recline is to remove the magazines, barf bag, safety card and everything else in the seat pocket.
The solution is simple, but will never be taken. Ever sit in a recliner at home? It slides forward so it doesn’t hit the wall. How many people would recline if it reduced their OWN legroom? Airlines should adopt a seat design that slides forward as it reclines. As a 6’4″ flyer, I would certainly welcome that! I can’t say how many times I’ve had another passenger run their seat into my knees, and then keep pushing to try and go further. I can guarantee they would not intentionally provoke me by inflicting pain on me outside of the plane/airport. They know what would happen. But on an airplane with all the “entitlement” mentality and air rage rules, people can be as passive-aggressive as they want with impunity.
I disagree with the notion expressed by many that something is inherently rude or wrong about reclining your seat on an airplane, but I like the solution proposed by Ed.H. It makes good sense.
I am 6’2″ and only recline when the seat behind me is either unoccupied or occupied by a much smaller person who clearly does not mind. I am also tolerant of folks who recline in front of me for sleep, but sit upright during the rest of the flight.
However, I have no respect or patience with the self-centered egocentrics who, except when they briefly rise for their feeding time, insist on fully reclining their seats for an entire 11 hour flight and then fidgeting, wiggling and bouncing around like they are mentally disturbed during the entire nightmarish journey. I also despise the angry-faced suits who are too cheap to go business class (or first class) and pretend like they don’t hear you when you politely ask them to give you back some of your space. My guess is they are republicans because they clearly don’t care about anyone except themselves.
And for those self-righteous mouthpieces who condemn the knee defender–and/or the users of it–all I can say is that you must also be republicans and your opinions are utterly useless anyway.
Gary, you say Republicans don’t care about anyone but themselves?
Many studies have shown that Republicans are more likely to volunteer their time to help others, more likely to donate to charity, more likely to give blood, more likely to be part of community service organizations. Try Googling “charitable giving liberals vs conservatives” to educate yourself on this subject.
For the short flights (except late @ night) of about 2-hours or less, I observed that the vast majority of the passengers, like me, do not recline their seats. Aprox about 1 in 5 do so to varying degrees.
I generally lock my knees against the seat back in front of me and try to keep them there, if the person in front tries to recline they eventually forget about it relieving me from having to be diligent.
I have had them complain which I completely ignore never answering them at all. That is my right not to speak. If the Flight Attendant should ask I say to tell me where I should put my legs. On my lap? Over the seat in front? Where? I say my knees are there because they are there and can be no where else! I am very polite to her, him or it. That generally ends that.
When the head is in my lap, I never stifle a sneeze or cough and tried to clear my throat of flem. My right to be sick.
If I am threatened I report it immediately. That is a Simple Assault and is usually a felony on board an aircraft.